Many have objected to my arguments that a biblical worldview must leave room for human ghosts by insisting that human apparitions are all demons in disguise. While it is impossible for an author to address each reader’s concerns one on one, a serious one will seek the strongest counter arguments and address them in print. That is why I addressed Mark Hunneman’s work explicitly in The Supernatural Worldview. Now, in the interest of seeking truth, we are both taking it live in a moderated debate. I will be debating Presbyterian Pastor Mark Hunneman author of Seeing Ghosts Through God’s Eyes on whether or not “all ghosts are demons” (Mark’s position) or, in contrast, a biblical worldview allows for the appearance of human apparitions (my stance). This will be recorded and publicly podcast free to all on Beyond Extraordinary with Natalina, the first weekend in October. Enjoy Natalina’s awesome promotional video:
Looking forward to listening. Thanks and God bless!
Pastors and other ‘experts’ remind me of the so-called experts on Bigfoot or UFO’s. They are experts that actually know nothing that can be proven about subjects that are false to begin with. Religion, all religion is just a bunch of myths and fables invented by man.
It’s easy to make such claims John but it is another thing entirely to provide evidence for your assertions. Are you even aware of the wealth of evidence for UFOs? …or my religion for that matter?
Chuck Missler has a great book from the Christian perspective on UFOs called, “Alien Encounters.” It’s on Amazon.
Amen Cris
John,
It’s incongruous for someone that holds your position to even be here, unless you are struggling within yourself about these types of ideas. Regardless, there is no need to be a snide rude a**hole when you came here by your own free will.
I have read Chris’ book Exo-Vaticana and unlike you, he has the intellectual honesty to investigate a matter before declaring an uninformed opinion. He presents FACTS and statements from his sources and then let’s those of us who have taken the time to read them and mull them over pass our own judgements. Your opinion, is entirely without value because and you commit the same error whereby you accuse “Pastors and other ‘experts’ … of the so-called experts on Bigfoot or UFO’s.”
Prove that it is myth John.
Absent from the body present with the Lord
This only applies to believers and it does not exclude God allowing someone to visit as he did Samuel’s ghost in 1 Samuel 28. Because God did it once that we are sure about, who is to say if God has allowed it another time or will again in the future? How can anyone claim to know all of what God has done?
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27
Artie;
It only says ghosts in your reference, if you are reading a false translation. The accurate translation would be spirit. Pneumos. There is no Greek word for ghost.
Mike, there is a Greek word for ghost, it is phantasma. But it is not in use in Luke
Phantasma was not in use in classical Greek, only in modern Greek. So, it doesn’t even enter into the picture.
Shortly after my mom passed away I had a dream/encounter. I have heard many stories of people seeing a child, parent, spouse after they passed.
irish ghost stories abound and yes not all ghosts are demons. humans have spirits once dead perhaps putgatopry of sorts does exist after all(i can hear chris putnams lip frowning at that suggestion lol) just kidding mr putnam.
Of course I do not believe in purgatory but why is hard to believe the Lord might condemn someone to haunt the area where they committed a great evil as part of their judgment, in the intermediate state, prior to the final judgment at the Great White Throne (Rev 20)? Who is to say it is not possible?
Past life regression accounts as compiled by Michael Newton’s decades of practice and multiple published books, or Brian Weiss, likewise decades of practice and multiple published books, suggest these reasons as to why souls of human beings sometimes linger on the Earth plane:
* there is a desire to comfort close loved ones before going on to the Heavenly realm that souls reside between life incarnations.
My mother had a vision of my father when he passed at age 64. When he appeared to her she described him looking to be much younger, say in his 20s or early 30s.
The most typical way that people sense their departed loved ones, though, is by special vivid dreams that bring them great ease of mind. My son had a vivid dream encounter with a young man that he was friends with in his freshman year of college that had died in a car accident. The friend wanted my son to know that he was very well and happy in the place he was at now. My wife’s brother-in-law had this kind of dream about his brother that he was very close to when that brother passed. In both cases this brought great sense of peace of mind in the aftermath of the dream, and for the brother-in-law, eased the bereavement process. My son said he had never experienced a dream like this and it very much affirmed the loving nature of our Creator to him. (This is why gnostic Christians esteem personal experience with the spiritual realm to that of the highly questionable dogmas of those that assert only they have valid truth.)
According to the past life regression studies, departed souls find it easier to interact with us the living in theses manners when they remain for a while in the Earth plane. Once their goal is achieved in this, then they move on to a different realm.
* another reason that souls may remain here is due to emotional trauma they experienced when still living. They may have a hard time departing for a while (to a human perspective this may seem like years but time is not reckoned in the same manner from a soul perspective). Eventually they will eventually move on, but sometimes they may need assistance. That usually will come from their spirit guide at some point, but I do know of cases where living human beings assisted such souls in being able to move on.
* other cases of apparitions appear to be loops in the Akashic Record. Battlefield situations seem to be particularly notorious for causing these highly charged “playback loops”, but also other cases of traumatic situations that lead to a death situation. These are not the souls of these individuals but a holographic Akashic record that tend to be more easily sensed by typical limited human pshychic ability, and so many people may experience these manner of playback loop phenomena from time to time at the locale.
The vivid dream reaction was the most prominent in my own experience, and the most reassuring; I have had other experiences where I truly felt guided after the other’s passage. I also think I have had, at least once, and possibly other times, interference from another plane to keep me alive. There really is no other explanation for my survival in scuba boot camp in Mexico, when I got certified (I have never dived again). I failed the deepwater mask passing. I was drowning. Somehow, the instructor managed to save me. Or so it seemed at the time, to the rest of them. I believe I know better. The birth of my first child may well be another instance. I know I was slipping away then, as well; I was bleeding to death (no anaesthesia, severe complications, in a foreign country), and I fainted on the table due to blood loss/trauma. (I knew the baby had already been born, via high forceps, and was very healthy. I saw her. The placenta did not deliver. The doctor had to manually deliver it.)
In case you are wondering what country, it was France, in 1978. Not the third world.
Why do you not believe in a version of purgatory? What you stated after you said, “Of course, I do not believe in purgatory…” really is a statement of belief in a version of purgatory, with which, quite frankly, I concur to some degree. I have had my own experiences, and concurring reports. Please clarify.
My position is simple, God did allow samuel to appear in the OT so a biblical worldview must allow for the possibility that it could happen again. Samuel was not in purgatory, he was in Hades, the OT paradigm is different than the NT after Jesus resurrection.
Should be an interesting debate. I’ll be tuning in.
Chris Putnam the apologist for the druidic based Christian religion that usurped the Netserite movement. While pretending to expose the vatican Working hard to keep Christians worshipping the Sun by proxy through the religious preceps and pagan holidays that Constantine the high priest to Mithra instituted..
Thanks Betsie I needed a good chuckle!
our Spirits return to God they do not hang around,what people see or hear are the Spirits of the giants who were drowned in the flood.God condemned them to the earth until judgement.They are called familiar spirits,they pose as loved ones who have died..
Actually that is not what is meant by “familiar spirit” as it was used by the Hebrew authors in the Old Testament. It’s covered in my book or any good Hebrew lexicon.
If God condemned the giants called “mighty men of renown” to be earthbound spirits, it provides a precedent. So who can say God has not done it in other cases?
The idea that spirits of dead human beings would be wandering around in limbo with nothing better to do is ridiculous. It’s nothing more than a satanic agenda that enforces new age beliefs and makes it sound like no one (God) is in control. Think about it for a second.
There is no such thing as a ‘haunted house’ either. It’s a haunted world (demonic). They only power when it’s given to them. If a ‘haunted house’ was demolished. Then what happens to the so called ‘spirits’? Is the ground then haunted? Please. Not to mention the silliness you see is you can almost ALWAYS find a place where someone has died, yet that is used for the premise.
They are called familiar spirits for a reason. They (demons) are familiar with those who were once living. You have to understand it’s all about deception. I watch the show Ghost Adventures (which I refer to as demon adventures), and where are all the friendly ghosts? Have they ever had a good and fun experience? No, it’s either dull (no activity) or someone is getting terrified out of their wits, even resorting to violent behavior. Get a clue. The story in Samuel is a peculiar one, and deserves a lot of picking apart.
I don’t think I have asserted anything about “wandering around in limbo.” You make lots of absolute knowledge claims and provide scant evidence, biblical or otherwise. What makes you so authoritative on the spirit realm? Why should anyone believe your claims to secret knowledge that even the Bible does not make?
I don’t claim to know with certainty but I don’t think you (or anyone else) does either.
The Bible does reveal an example of a human ghost (1 Sam 28). Jesus implied that ghosts exist in Luke 24. So ghosts have biblical support but there is not a single passage to be found where a demon impersonates a human apparition. It’s just not in the Bible anywhere — it is a man made tradition to assert “all ghosts are demons,” it has no scriptural evidence. Ghosts do! One is biblical the other is human tradition, take your pick.
Also you do not understand what a “familiar spirit” entails as it was used in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus does not imply that ghosts exist in Luke 24 (defined as humans trapped here or visiting here)or Mark 6 or any passage in the bible. 1 Samuel 28 may not be used to extrapolate any present activity.
Valid inference has the same authority as explicit reference. Everyone except yourself, Cris, seems to understand that 2 Corinthians11:14 is a valid inference that Satan/demons can/do appear mimicking deceased humans. If they can can mimic a glorious angel, then it would be easy to mimic a human…..just as good angels do as well.(Hebrews 13:2) Most judicious investigators have an enormous amount of evidence to support this. I certainly have encountered dozens of cases of demons mimicking deceased humans in order to deceive. You simply do not know what you are talking about.
You think that demonic mimicry of deceased humans is a man made tradition?! It is one of the oldest traditional demonic religions.
The burden of proof lies on you.
The Luke 24 passage is compelling, both because it is the second time the disciples made this mistake (and were not corrected concerning ghost belief) and also for what Jesus did say rather than what He did not say. The first time Matthew’s gospel use the Greek word Phantasm which exclusively refers to humans, while he surely could have instructed his disciples that they were exclusively fallaenagels, he never did. Jesus seemed satisfied with the leaving their first century Jerusalem “man of the street” wordview intact. But Luke 24 is a stronger passage because of what jesus does say:
“And he said to them, “Why are you frightened? And for what reason do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet, that I am I myself! Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.”(Lk 24:38–39)
The passage is compelling, both because it is the second time the disciples made this mistake and also for what Jesus did say rather than what He did not say. Eric James observed, “Had Jesus rebuked or corrected them the first time, off the record, then surely the second time around He would have even more harshly, or made it excruciatingly clear that ghosts aren’t real.” Not only did Jesus not correct their belief in ghosts, He made a point of distinguishing Himself from a ghost based on its attributes: “a ghost does not have flesh and bones.” He implies that ghosts exist, but that He is not one because He has flesh and bones. This wouldn’t make sense if ghosts do not exist. Jesus strongly implies that ghosts are real entities. He had room for them in his worldview.
Well for one thing Yeshua himself taught the reincarnation of souls:
Jesus speaking from the assumption of the gnostic (and Essene, and Platonic) belief in reincarnation, and thus the preexistence of the soul apart from the origin of the physical body (i.e., the soul of Elijah incarnating as John the Baptist):
Matthew 11:10–15
I tell you solemnly, of all the children born of women, a greater than John the Baptist has never been seen; yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is. Since John the Baptist came, up to this present time, the Kingdom of Heaven has been subjected to violence and the violent are taking it by storm. Because it was toward John that all of the prophecies of the prophets and of the Law were leading, and he, if you will believe me, is the Elijah who was to return. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen!
[“taking it by storm” refers to the various early first century zealots – several well known to the historical record – that attempted to force the fulfillment of messianic prophecy by inciting and engaging in acts of violence]
Excerpt from:
Which Jesus? (Gnostic teachings of the New Testament)
http://vossnetblog.org/2014/09/24/which-jesus-gnostic-teachings-of-the-new-testament/
Actually he does not imply ghosts exist in Luke 24…Luke 24:37 utilizes the Greek “pneuma” meaning spirit, and NOT the Greek “phantasma” which would mean ghost. Jesus is comparing Himself to spirit, being non fleshly, and has nothing to do with ghosts. More biblical mistranslations that alter the original word and corrupt the true meaning.
Spirit and ghost are used interchangeably but the context determines meaning, The disciples saw Jesus (a human) walking toward them so obviously they thought it was a human spirit – what we call a ghost.
A human spirit (or soul) IS a ghost by definition.
Full Definition of GHOST. 1 : the seat of life or intelligence : soul 2 : a disembodied soul; especially : the soul of a dead person believed to be an inhabitant of the unseen world or to appear to the living in bodily likeness. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ghost
Chris;
No accurate translation of the scriptures in 1 Samuel:28 even mentions what you claim. And, there is ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF GHOSTS in any accurate translation. Not one. Ghosts do NOT exist, as we have no immortal soul. If you want to believe it, fine, but do not teach such falsehoods to others.
Making assertions is not enough, please prove it
I believe I did.. I gave you the Greek wording that proves my statement, or were you referring to the other guy that responded.
If you are referring to my comment, then you have all the proof you need available to you 24/7 in an accurate scriptural translation. If you were one of my students, I would show you, one on one, but you are not. I would only teach you if it was evident that you had the honest heart spoken of in the scriptures, and were drawn toward God. It’s clear that that is not the case. You must do your own research that you have to date failed to do.
Mike I have studied both Greek and Hebrew and work with the original language texts, your comments tell me that you really do not know what you are talking about.
I’ve seen several testimonies from former Satanic cultists, claiming they were once in league w/ demonic entities who posed as the “ghosts” of people’s late relatives & friends. Why you ask? In order to lead them astray.
Why trusts Satanists over the Bible?
Does God permit time travel? Does repair of the world involve nonlinear histories?
Does the clay do what is commanded?
Can the first be last, and the last first?
Where are Moses, and Elijah, and those that were raised, over 500, in Palestine?
Where, and when, is Enoch?
Was the Baptist called out in the womb? When was that?
Maybe a feature, not a bug. Time itself is subject to the Truth.
almost done reading your book. Very well written, thought out and researched. I think sometimes we fall prey to theolgical “abbreviations” that keep us from critically examining subjects. thx
Bro Chris, right on, past life regression’s or ‘familiar’ spirits are truly beings (spiritual) who have generations after generation’s pulling off the ‘nothing new under the sun game! What truly bugs me (including most pondering Christian’s) is how true Scripture (inspired by God, written by man) really is! Text alone (via study anyone can discern truth, it’s meant to be in order to led one to Christ Jesus, once Redeemed His Spirit will guide you to the awesome truths. Many don’t understand why there was light before the Creation of the sun (3rd) day! God is light, dark matter had to be Created so that the sun could function in all it’s way’s! Many don’t understand why God Created the rainbow as a sign (never to destroy world by water again) and what climate, geo, life etc was like before the flood & just how much the earth scream’s of the Genesis account flood!Then we have written history before the factual event(s) (prophecy) that only the Most High could do & know!
The Ba’al worshipers know very well of the spiritual world and for years knew if this cat got out of the bag to soon they’re (global) vision could not be meant! This age is quickly wrapping up, 2500 yr prophecy is like reading today’s paper!
It’s impossible not to believe Scripture unless one has the agenda of Apollo, the devil believes in the Bible, the devil hates all of God’s special Creation (us/human’s) and proves it with his lawless behavior! Worship Ba’al, all you (might) get is a few vaporous trinket’s and the eternal separation from the only One who truly loves (all) us called the lake of fire which was Created for Satan & all his minion’s! Lucy doesn’t want people to know just how easy (& free to us) it’ really is to be Saved!
Man has to get his head out of the sand, ‘religion’ is creation’s of man & sa’tan, Jesus is the only way, why would there be? the cost was was very very high for the God Head. Why (at such a cost) would there be another? Scripture tell’s us that only a few (straight & narrow road) find it! Again, why? One reason is human nature with the devil’s touch, pride arrogance hauteness, apathy, lovers of one’s self’s & hatred for truth & God!
What is you pr view of the Warrens’ and their reported experiences?
I am disturbed by Mrs Warren’s claim to me a Christian medium — it seems like an oxymoron.
I’ve heard your name around in the past, but haven’t looked into you or your stance very much. After hearing your stance (and related comments) on this topic though, I am quite easily convinced I no longer need to look into any other stances you take. The Bible is not rocket science… God is not trying to confuse matters. He is actually very clear on things.
You are probably mistaken if you assume you understand my position without reading my book.
Pagan customs are traditional for Christians. God is clear about how He feels about this. We can go on and on but God is NOT mocked! We fool ourselves when we get a whiff of stink and refuse to say it is stink. God is good and puts up with a lot from us all!!! Halleliuah!!!!
The Blood of the LAMB is what I claim and hold dear The Lamb Himself is my one true LOVE!!! I worship only HIm and His Father and He knows this!!! Halleluiah!!!
Tanya;
Pagan customs are traditional for members of Christendom, not Christians. No true Christian would have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any religion. Christendom pretends and claims to be Christian, but they are RELIGIONISTS. All religion originated with Satan, was taught against by Jesus, and is abhorrent to God Almighty. All religionists will be condemned to destruction in the final battle, with no resurrection hope at all. They will all be gone permanently forever.
Not sure where you are getting this from Mike….religion defined is simply a structure of beliefs, mainly associated with a deity. Since we believe in God and Christ, that is our religion by definition, what point are you trying to make?
Mark is a great guest and should be a great debate! Was lucky to hear him speak in person a a paranormal meet up her ein Raleigh and had him on way back on Mind Cemetery when I was on Blogtalkradio.
My own thought is this, drawing from Enoch and the fact that the spirits of the dead nephilim were condemned to wander the earth as evil spirits, hungering and thirsting, and assuming that the nephilim bloodline is still represented in large swaths of humanity, albeit significantly diminished, by and large: In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, neither Lazarus nor the rich man seem to have any ability to alter the disposition of their spirits- Lazarus wouldn’t want to, the rich man could not. Humans, it seems, do not get the “option” to hang around,no matter what the unfinished business. BUT IF A PERSON, unsaved, and with nephilim blood dies, it seems that that spirit could be condemned to roam the earth. This is not to say, a person with dormant nephilim genetics cannot be saved, as it could be argued that we ALL have those, but just that if that person is not, it would be possible for the same condemnation to fall. Evaluating most ghosts, they seem oblivious to living humans, and often just repeat motions familiar to them in life. They are almost zombie-like ghosts (wrap your mind around that one) in that they are focused on one activity. Ghosts interacting with people or the environment would seem to me to be demons. I look forward to the broadcast, because this is an important topic with salvation-threatening implications.
Jesus himself said to Thomas, “I am not a ghost” when he appeared to the disciples in the upper room. So there must be “ghosts” even if here for a limited time, before going home to the Lord.
I don’t fear death anymore, after my Father appeared to me in a dream looking healthy and young and told me he was happy and in a good place. I have heard similar stories from friends, I assume the best way to visit a loved one is through a dream, since appearing to them any other way might scare them, just a thought.
Artie;
It only says ghosts in your reference, if you are reading a false translation. The accurate translation would be spirit. Pneumos. There is no Greek word for ghost.
Yes Mike there is…the Greek Phantasmos….
it is not to be found in the original texts anywhere.
Moderator comment: You are proven wrong: “οἱ δὲ μαθηταὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης περιπατοῦντα ἐταράχθησαν λέγοντες ὅτι φάντασμά ἐστιν, καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ φόβου ἔκραξαν.”(Mt 14:26)
There are no original text of any of the New Testament canon gospels. For instance the oldest copy of Matthew dates to around 200 AD – and has some pretty clear signs of having been tampered with by proto-orthodox scribes (the theological forerunners of the doctrinal group that became the Chatholic Church) for political agenda purposes. So its a completely specious argument to talk about the presumed sanctity of original scriptures as no one in the modern era has access to such a thing when it comes to Bibical text.
What follows is an explanation of this particular tampering of New Testament text (there are other cases detectable besides this one):
The Foundational Rock (Cornerstone) and the Primal Adam Concept
(Exploring the meaning of the phrase Son of Man)
In the excerpt appended below Mark Gaffney ruminates on the very high likelihood that Matthew 16:18–19 “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” is a late second century addition to that gospel. This follow-on line to Peter’s confession (which itself appears in all the Synoptic Gospels) only appears in Matthew. It is also the only case of the use of the word “church” that appears in all the New Testament canon gospels; an apparent 2nd century anachronism via being a projection of the specific term “church” back upon a 1st century author that was otherwise not self-aware of the usage of the term “church” in respect to the Jesus movements. (The appearance of the term “church” is effectively the smoking gun that gives the matter away.)
The upshot of this verse is that it hijacked a conceptual term that in all other cases of scripture had identified Yeshua himself as being the foundational rock or corner stone. This term [corner stone] was equated by the Naassene Christians of Alexandria (claiming James the Just, brother of Yeshua, as the source of their teachings) with the concept of the Primal Man or Primal Adam – that Yeshua was uniquely the embodiment of this heavenly archetype of humanity, and that this is the implication of the phrase Son of Man that Yeshua preferred to apply to himself.
So in a sense the artificial addition to the text of Matthew [per 16:18–19] could be regarded technically as a form of blasphemy (the act of supplanting Yeshua with Peter) – committed by scribes within the proto-orthodox Christian faction (the faction that would later be elevated into political power by the Roman Emperor Constantine in the 4th century). [The Old Testament writings themselves are in large part a product of this manner of editorial redaction, so there is nothing new going on here in where prior scriptural text are being deliberately skewed to suit a political-religious agenda.]
[Excerpt from: Gnostic Secrets of the Naassenes The Initiatory Teachings of the Last Supper, Mark H. Gaffney, pages 120-121]
Over many centuries Christian theologians assumed that Matthew was the original source document on which the other synoptics, Mark and Luke, had been based. (Scholars agreed that the Gospel of John was based on a separate, independent source.) This surely explains why the Gospel of Matthew was accorded first place in the New Testament. It wasn’t until the nineteenth century that two scholars, Karl Lachman and Christian Wilke, launched a revolution when they separately began to argue for the primacy of the Gospel of Mark. Each had made deductions parallel to the other’s based on a similar analysis of scripture, and, not surprisingly, both men met fierce resistance.21 In religious matters the weight of inertia is so powerful that genuine innovations are almost always stolidly opposed. The mainstream, if it changes at all, tends to do so very slowly. Nevertheless, truth was on the side of Lachman and Wilke, and change eventually did come. By the time of World War I, a consensus of biblical scholars had swung away from the primacy of Matthew. Today, Mark is indisputably the principal source document for the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, although a second sayings source, now lost and known as “Q,” has also been identified.
It is easy to show that all three of the synoptic accounts of the New Testament are parallel to each other in structure. For example, Peter’s Confession (or his Profession of Faith) also occurs in Mark 8. But the line “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church” is conspicuously absent. Nor can it be found in Luke 9. Because the famous line is absent from the original source document—Mark—the obvious question arises: How did it find its way into Matthew? The Roman Catholic Church has no answer to this question. The evidence we have reviewed strongly suggests that the line in Matthew equating Peter with the foundational rock of the Church was a fabrication, the result of tampering, perhaps, by someone with a political agenda.
It’s a shame, you are incorrect.
Mike you are incorrect. It is used in Matthew’s Gospel when the disciples saw Jesus walking on water and thought he was a ghost.
I hadn’t until now considered that there is no scriptural evidence of a demon impersonating a human spirit. I had always believed (and still do) that the dead “sleep” in the dust of the Earth awaiting the return of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) or one of the resurrections of the just and unjust (Acts 24:15).
Psalms 6:5 For the dead do not remember you. Who can praise you from the grave?
Psalms 30:9 “What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
These along with the Book of Enoch (spirits of dead giants) really sealed my opinion, and then I figured I must be right since everyone else who knew anything shared my opinion. Now it seems I know 3 different doctrines for every hard question in the Bible, which confuses anyone who would ask me what I know about this or that (Pre-Trib rapture or Post_Trib is a good example).
My girlfriend knows very little about the Bible, thinks she is a Christian (says in a nonchalant way of course she believes Jesus was the Son of God and God raised him- but does she only know that’s what the Bible says, OR does she really, really believe it? especially when I had to tell her? but I digress). She believes in ghosts and thinks I am bat guano crazy for believing about giants, thinks I believe in aliens no matter how many times I tell her they are fallen angels, and that ghosts are really dead giants trying to deceive men and women. I sound like a raving lunatic.
I guess the question I have is to what purpose would God allow the spirits of men to haunt the Earth? as a warm up torture? That doesn’t seem very polite. God only allowed “Satan” a tenth of the spirits he had thrown in the abyss because Satan needed them to tempt and corrupt men. This is either in Enoch or Jasher, I forget off hand. But Regardless there was a purpose for them: to serve Satan, and some are fallen angels, and demons are really just meanyhead dead giants.
This long convoluted line of reasoning is hard to make it to the end of the explanation without the person who asked about ghosts thinking I am crazier than they are for believing in ghosts, and inevitably being sorry they ever asked. Ghosts are much simpler. But at least I was rock solid on that.
So, the more I learn, the less I am convinced of, and now it seems I will have yet another explanation for the other side of the argument, because you know I can’t picked door A or door B. I have to explain AAAALLL the possibilities. Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? Can really smart animals sin? I just told my mother she’ll get her beloved Yorkie back in Heaven, but if we’re going to live in that giant gold Borg cube on Earth, I’m not sure the management allows pets.
You get the idea. Looking forward to the debate. Knock’em dead Chris. They’ll still wander around anyways.
How do I unsubscribe from this thread? It was interesting a week ago…
Since the world, and it’s desires are about to pass away, I am not surprised to continue seeing weirdness such as this article demonstrates. Scripturally speaking, we HAVE NO IMMORTAL SOUL. Scripturally speaking, anything pretending to be a dead human is a demon. It’s apparent that no one is studying the scriptures, or they are studying a false translation like KJV, DR, ASV, etc. The original scriptures do not support immortality of soul, hell, cross, ghosts, etc.
I understand your Jehovah’s Witness doctrine that you spout here, but they are wrong in their translation. I don’t believe that any group who believes that Jesus is just another god,( they claim lower-case j,) in their New World Translation at John 1:1 (In the beginning was the word and the word was a god…note a god just one scripture they twist out of hundreds. Talk about a false translation!
Mike, I study the original languages, I use the Novum Testamentum Graece and the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgarten, and I can tell you that your comments are slightly off…The immortality of the soul is spoken of every time Christ speaks of receiving life eternal. Once again, we have a soul that is to continue on and for Christians at judgment, placed back in the new body. The referral of Hell is mostly associated with Gehenna, the Lake of Fire which is different than Hades. Christ Himself speaks of the cross so that is completely inaccurate, and ghosts are mentioned in the NT as if they are taken a factual, at least in theory.
Chris,
Have you read “Have Heart” by Steve Berger?
http://www.amazon.com/Have-Heart-Bridging-Between-Heaven-ebook/dp/B003ZDO30M/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411617315&sr=1-1&keywords=have+heart+steve+berger
This book is controversial because Steve (who is a pastor) claimed to see his son after his death.
In this case, his son was a believer.
I was wondering about your take on the book. There is a lot of negative reviews on the internet from sites like the berean call.
Blessings,
Peter
Christians adhering to traditionalist orthodox doctrines basically fell back into the old archaic Judaic beliefs about the afterlife which are primitive and completely off base from actuality (when evaluated by the various avenues of evidences that have come to light in the 19th,20th, and 21st century.
The afterlife is nothing like so-called conventional Christianity imagines it to be – the biggest surprise to that perspective is that the soul is an emenation from the Creator consciousness/spirit (hence why Yeshua said that he and the Father are one – the same being the case for all humanity John 10:30-34), the soul is therefore eternal in nature, pre-existent, and as such has typically reincarnated through many human lives.
Christian gnosis, in ancient times as in current times, is the process of awakening to one’s eternal soul identity and hence the true nature of one’s origin.
The only afterlife that is existent is dust. Back to the grave. The soul that sins, itself shall die. Nothing survives death. Your thoughts do perish. From the dust we came, and to the dust we shall return. There is NO IMMORTAL SOUL. An immortal soul is a teaching of religion and man. All religion, ALL religion originated with Satan, including Judaism. Before the Mosaic law was terminated at Jesus’ death, they were bound by law. It was NOT a religion and was not a religion. Religion was introduced to Earth in the Garden in Eden by Satan. Jesus taught against all religion. Religion makes one believe that Jesus died on a cross and not a stauros (torture stake), that hell exists (it doesn’t), and that we have an immortal soul (we do not). Religion is at it’s essence, opposed to God’s word. All religion teaches things not to be found in God’s word. I am not talking about a false translation of God’s word, like the King James, ASV, DR, and most others. I am talking about an ACCURATE translation. Not many exist.
Another incorrect Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. They teach the body goes to dust, because that was taught in the OLD Testament. In the NEW Testament we have Christ, who gives us everlasting life. From the moment we die, we live again. AND at the resurrection we receive a body of flesh and bones just like the body Christ said that he had, a glorified body. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong about this dust to dust, too. Sorry. All religion originates with Satan, except, of course the Jehovah’s Witnesses, THEY claim.
You must be a Jehova’s Witness Mike, yes? If so, I have questions to pose to you.
Whatever you presume I am, I am not interested in your questions designed to further the misleading work Satan has you doing. You, and all other “religionists” don’t stand a chance against God, his son, or the theocracy that will govern Earth post Armageddon. Go prey on someone else.
No Mike, I am quite correct. I have been ministering for several years now from the original languages and not a translation, my impartation can be documented literally to the original apostles, and I can tell you with certainty that your doctrines are false, your interpretations are heresy and dangerous. I am going to definitely assume you are a Jehova’s Witness since you are so loathe to answer the question, knowing that the Jehova’s translation is a fraudulent document designed to remove the deity of Christ. Good luck, If anyone is assisting Satan here, it is you with your false doctrines.
As I previously stated, it is you who are being dishonest, and are incorrect. Assisting Satan seems to be an occupation of yours and I don’t want any part of that. I do NO interpretations, as God did say that interpretation belongs ONLY to Him. You however, appear to interpret the entirety of the texts. It is for that reason, and one other, that you have no discernment of the accurate meanings of almost all scriptures. The other reason is that you do not have an honest heart, and therefore the scriptures are not made discernable to you by God’s holy spirit. You speak of heresy and blasphemy. You claim that Jesus begot himself, prayed to himself, resurrected himself, was sent by himself, is the image of himself, etc. etc. You’re not sane.
No Mike, you obviously have no clue whatsoever about the trinity…and are unaware or do not understand the deeper workings of God, so you accuse people of assisting Satan because you do not understand. Jesus never prayed to himself. He prayed to the Father, one third of the triune God and highest in the chain. You either do not have good scriptures or do not pray and ask for guidance so you simply state what your human mind tries to come up with. It is not that you are doing Satan’s work, it is that you are misinformed and present opinion as scriptural fact. But you are influenced by the enemy to continue to try to block true scriptural meaning from others. Try to avoid so in the future.
Serious New Testament era scholars (historical or theological) contend (based on their research findings) that the Trinity Doctrine is a product of 4th century council deliberations and is not found in the New Testament as any explicit doctrine. Naturally advocates of the (originally) Catholic doctrine will make arguments that it is implicitly there. Many doing so like to reference the presumed high Christology of the Gospel of John and build from there. However, that gospel’s author actually emplaned a embedded explanation of its Christology in John 10:30-34 and that Christology explanation does Not back up the concept of the Trinity doctrine:
Which Jesus? (Gnostic teachings of the New Testament)
http://vossnetblog.org/2014/09/24/which-jesus-gnostic-teachings-of-the-new-testament/
In the end, the doctrine of the Trinity is a purely fabricated doctrine coming in latter centuries than the 1st century. And the Gospel of John is far closer in theological substance to the Gospel of Thomas than most so-called mainstream traditionalist Christians realize (as they’ve been under the sway of faulty doctrinal truth claims for the last 1600 years).
I’m sorry Roger but your explanation is total heresy. The trinity has nothing to do with any fourth century issues, nor doe sit make any difference what some scholar who has another agenda says. I call you to John chapter 1, “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and God was the word.” Of course later in the chapter John writes “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us”, verifying that Jesus Christ is the word as flesh, total man as well as total God, Combined with paying homage to the Father, we also see trinity markers throughout the old AND new testaments. To say there is no trinity is a satanic agenda designed to confuse and harass Christians and create doubt. I call your attention to the scripture “All judgment has been given to the son”, verifying Christ’s authority over man as God. Christ who delivered the Holy Spirit through breath and through His testimony that no one has seen the Father except Him, therefore confirming that in the old testament, it was not God the Father that was present among those listed but the incarnation of God in the third person form, therefore confirming the trinity. I seriously suggest you take the time to rethink your position, as it is written that the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, which by denying the trinity is exactly what you have done.
RogerV — very muddled reasoning… almost all doctrines are the products of 2-4 centuries because the New Testament did not even exist as a volume until 2-3 century. Yes the Trinity is an implicit doctrine but it is CLEARLY revealed in the New Testament. I show how it is derived here: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5176
Mark, there is nothing I haven’t studied excruciatingly about the made up trinity. I also understand all there is to understand, in the scriptures, about God Almighty. I am not accusing, I am stating fact. Forty years of studying all available English translations, all so called Christian sects, and all available texts of the original scrolls has shown, definitively, that all religion is, as the scriptures clearly state, originated with Satan, the opposer of God. The manslayer and liar, the father of the lie, and the one who caused all the false translations, over 31 of them, to be printed and distributed. There is no question that the trinity is false, and has it’s origin in paganism dating back to 325 a.d. There is also no question that you are apostate to the one true faith that Jesus taught as you are mixed up with religion. Absolutely no religion is approved by God or His son. Absolutely no religion teaches truth. Some teach some truth, but not even half of what the Bible teaches. Stick with your misbegotten beliefs and you are literally begging for God’s judgement upon your head at the final battle, if you survive the tribulation. Run from religion and false translations, study an accurate one, do God’s will, all of it, and you will be protected. The choice is, of course, yours to make.
Mike, that is your problem….as you said, you have studied painstakingly every ENGLISH TRANSLATION. But I study the original Greek and Hebrew and I can tell you there is NO falseness in the trinity. It is crystal clear as you read through the original languages and understand the trinity markers in the scriptures. Paganism did not make up the scriptures stating Christ as God, nor the Holy Spirit as God, It did not make up the scriptures that said, “And Elohim, He says WE shall make the man in the image of US as the likeness of US”…What do you think, God is schizophrenic? it is there and it is clear if you know how to read it. I implore you, stop putting faith in translations when it comes to such important doctrine.
As I said previously, I have studied all English translations AND original texts. No support for a trinity exists unless you interpret rather than discern the intended meaning. Careful comparison to all scriptures is required as well. There are NO contradictions and this is important to keep in mind. If you study the way you describe, and not ensure that everything fits like a glove, you can come up, easily, with a wrong conclusion, as you have. Most comparative scriptures, when compared to those that lead one to believe in a trinity, do not support such a silly thing. God Almighty is one God, none before, and none after. Jesus is God’s first and only direct creation. God’s only begotten son, the firstborn of all creation. Holy spirit is God’s force that He uses to create, and to perform what we see as miracles. It is like electricity in a sense. It is not a person, or any part of any trinity. It is a power, or force, or active force. God cannot create Himself, He has always been. Jesus WAS created, and through him, ALL other things have been created. God allowed Jesus to use holy spirit in the creation process, and in performing miracles, such as resurrections, healings, and so on. You seem to discount these things, and stick to a paganistic fraudulent creation that came into existence at the order of Constantine in 325. Stop thinking in terms of Constantine’s Bible, and in terms of religion, and think in terms of God’s word only. You may then see the truth, but I sincerely doubt it.
Mike, this is exactly the problem, you continue to completely ignore the scriptures I am giving you that prove the trinity. You continue to push your own agenda, which for some reason you wish to deny God and the trinity. It is NOT something created by men, it is by God. I will repeat this again so hopefully you will see this time. Only God has the power of creation. As written in John, Jesus Christ is the divine logos, the word, as John witnesses by his statement “the word became flesh and dwelt among us.” He also clearly makes the stipulation that without Him, nothing that exists could ever exist. Therefore Jesus Christ is the original creator, the word of God that breathed life into man in Genesis and became flesh to save us all from sin. And as Genesis (or if you prefer ‘barashith’) CLEARLY states, Elohim (God the Father) says “Let US (you see this plural do you not Mike?) make the man in OUR (see the plural again?) image, as in OUR (one more plural) likeness.” God is therefore speaking to the divine logos, that which would eventually become flesh, and that which is GOD. You seem to want to deny that Christ is God even as I show you that only God has the power of creation and as such, since the divine logos, the word of creation that created all with which nothing could exist if not for Him (Jesus), it lines up with perfect witness and perfect clarity. The ONLY POSSIBLE WAY that there could not be a triune God is if you are making the statement that John is a liar and the Gospel of John is a heresy. If that is your statement, just SAY so.
NO SCRIPTURES EXIST THAT PROVE A PAGAN TRINITY!!! That came about well after the death of the messiah or Christ. Socrates and Constantine proffered that absurd view, and then you of course.
Mike, once again you ignore scripture and say it does not exist. I direct you to Matthew 28:19 – “Therefore having gone, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Spoken by Christ as command, giving the Trinitarian form and confirming the three as one. How do you respond to this scripture? If you again dismiss it without acknowledgement or explanation, then this conversation will be over, because you will be confirming the agenda that you wish to remove the Trinity from existence because it does not match your wishes, and you will once again have ignored scripture.
You wrote:
Mike, once again you ignore scripture and say it does not exist. I direct you to Matthew 28:19 – “Therefore having gone, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Spoken by Christ as command, giving the Trinitarian form and confirming the three as one. How do you respond to this scripture?
I never said the scriptures do not exist. You are not being truthful.
Matthew 28:19 does not give any such trinitarian form, and confirms no trinitarian form. Nor does it confirm that the three are one. Only two are persons, one, holy spirit, is a force of God. The Father is the first, Jesus is the Father’s creation, and holy spirit is a force. No scripture says they are one, no scriptures confirms your misbegotten “religion” belief. No scripture confirms any of the teachings of man over the teachings of God. You seem to have an issue with discernment.
Your blasphemous, religious, and man made beliefs only serve to condemn you to God’s adverse judgement. Why would you deliberately bring this upon yourself? Study the book of Job and the three so called friends who tried diligently to convince Job that the teachings of God are not true. It should remind you of yourself. Job maintained integrity. You are trying to destroy mine. It cannot be done. Yours, if you ever posessed any, was long ago destroyed by religion and the teachings of men. As I indicated previously, without God seeing an honest heart within you, He won’t use his force, or holy spirit to bestow upon you correct discernment of His word. You continue to maintain that dishonest heart. He will continue to deny you discernment, as Satan works pretty hard to obfuscate that discernment. The ONLY way to overcome that obfuscation is with holy spirit being used by God to help you. Sadly, you diligently deny that help.
This is Rob Skiba’s heresy as well, no the Holy Spirit is not a force. One cannot grieve a force, only personal beings feel grief: “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.(Eph 4:30)
See Doubt and Confusion Concerning the Holy Spirit as a Person
May I ask as to why you take personifications of holy spirit as literal persons? Comparative study of the scriptures in question will reveal that they are ONLY personifications. One CAN grieve holy spirit, as both the grieving and the personification are metaphors. Realize that God CANNOT lie. If your take were the correct one, that would mean that God lied in many other scriptures and that’s impossible.
I do not automatically assume they aren’t personifications but I read the text itself (in context) to determine. For example Jesus says, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”(Jn 16:13)
Phrasing like “his own authority” is incoherent if this were a personification so it is very clearly speaking of a personal entity.
That would still necessarily mean that many other scriptures are lies. God CANNOT lie. it would invalidate His justice and His principles.
No it simply means your interpretation of the other scriptures is incorrect. I see no such contradictions.
2 Peter 1:20 For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. God also did say that “interpretation belongs only to Me.” I do not interpret the scriptures. That is guessing at it’s meaning. I discern it’s meaning by comparative research. So your claim holds no water.
That’s absurd and you’re too arrogant to bother with. Later.
How can you say that scriptures, any of them, are absurd? That does explain a lot of your misunderstandings of Biblical principles though.
No I am saying you are absurd personally. And very intellectually dishonest. To claim that you do not interpret the scripture but have singularly absolute knowledge is ABSURD, you are just supremely arrogant and even more ignorant to think so.
On the contrary Cris. The annointed 144,000, or rather the remnant of them are annointed with holy spirit, and therefore have excellent discernment of the scriptures. There are many with whom we all study and receive help in understanding of the scriptures. There most certainly is nothing absurd about that. The annointed are the only ones ever to be turned into spirit beings and go to heaven. They, the remnant left pre Armageddon, are still, as they have done since Christ walked the Earth, teaching all who they can. They and their associates are the only ones doing the will of God, and are the only ones, the associates, who will be protected by God Almighty and who will survive Armageddon, as promised in Revelation to John, and in many of Paul’s letters, and even the other apostles letters. Still, nothing absurd there. The scriptures were written by the annointed, TO the annointed, and FOR the annointed for their benefit, and for them to use to teach the rest who will listen on Earth. Without holy spirit, discernment of the scriptures is quite impossible. It is apparent that you have no discernment of their meaning, and rely on guessing (interpretation) to pretend that you know what they mean. It would be quite to your benefit to seek out one or more of the 6,000 or so of the annointed left on Earth, and to ask them for help in understanding God’s word. No other way exists, except for God to see in you that honest heart I previously mentioned. He will then use holy spirit to help you, or to send someone to you to help you. Otherwise, you will remain clueless. This is not arrogance, this is scriptural fact, as plainly stated in the Bible repeatedly. I still cannot believe that you think some or all scripture is absurd. THAT is absurd in itself. Whether you read it, or someone relates it to you, the effect remains the same. You think God’s word is absurd, and I feel sad about that.
Everything stated herein is complete scriptural fact and is plainly stated repeatedly throughout the scriptures. To argue with facts from God, is to argue with what God has to say to us. That is incomprehensible. You are believing man’s word over God’s, and God created man. The created cannot be greater than the creator. It’s impossible. Yet, you still cling to the notion that they can be greater than their creator. Makes not a whit of sense.
Sorry but the New World Translation is contrived and no real Greek scholar accepts it. You have no idea who the 144,000 are… but the many false prophecies of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society are documented.
Actually many scholars have claimed the NWT to be the most accurate literal translation to date. Young’s has been called similarly as accurate but a little short. The Jewish Orthodox has been also called extremely literally accurate for a long time. Many scholars have made those claims for a long long time. King James, however, was translated into Latin, German, and then English. It comes directly from copies of Constantine’s half pagan half Christian Bible from 325 a.d., when the Roman Church was invented. That church 75 years later became the Roman Catholic Church, and their Bible is almost a Xerox copy of Constantine’s illegitimate work. You have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker and believe it to be accurate for some reason I cannot understand.
Since you know absolutely nothing accurate about the organization that you are disparaging, and haven’t the courage to go straight to them for information, I can then tell you that there have been no prophecies at all, ever from them. What they have published was their understanding, at the timie, of what scriptural truths they were referring to. As their understanding improved, they have always made adjustments. They are the extension of the original Christian Congregation (ecclesia) that Jesus began on the night before he was murdered by apostates.
Your quoted article is from such apostates who haven’t a clue about the scriptures to begin with. Only a coward would use one’s enemy to claim they were getting accurate information about an organization. An honest person would go to the source. They would study and investigate the source. Not take other’s word for it. But that’s who you are apparently.
40 years of studying all English translations, and original texts, and studying all sects of “Christianity” in depth has shown that the organization that you are disparaging is the only one so far that I have found to be actually doing what God has commanded, and to be doing it truthfully and honestly. But then again, Jesus said that “the world hates me, so the world will hate you” for telling the truth about him and his Father. You therefore must be “of the world”, when Jesus said to be NO part of the world, but to live in it as an alien resident.
Lots of claims but no evidence to support them… put up or shut up, Cite your source that Constantine had anything to do with translating the NT? (I argue he didn’t) Either support your claims or go away.
(we have entire Greek Bibles that predate Constantine)
It seems that you never went to school. It’s ancient history. I was taught that in high school, and in college. It is also basic teaching in any seminary. I didn’t go to seminary as I have NOTHING to do with religion, except to stay clear of it. It is easy to research if you know how to use Google or wikipedia. I will not do your research for you. Don’t be lazy. None of this childish “put up or shut up” baloney. I am not a little kid. They are the ones who use such childish statements. I presume you’ve never heard of the council at Nicea either? Constantine organized and commanded that council to create his Bible for his new state religion called the Roman Church. If you can’t find the time to look it up, it’s your loss. Argue all you want, but facts are facts and your laziness and disbelief cannot possibly change them.
I have a Masters Degree in Theology and have studied the biblical languages and church history in detail. I have read the original source documents from the Council of Nicea and it’s clear you don’t know what you are talking about. I did my homework on this but you haven’t. Constantine did not have anything to do with the trinity. The Church Father Tertullian wrote about the trinity 100 years BEFORE Constantine and I can cite the source. See: documentation.
I asked you to provide evidence for your claims, and you only made excuses and called me uneducated. Anyone can make claims but its another thing to provide evidence for why we should believe you. You have not done that. If you want your next post approved that entails listing the original source documents that lead to the conclusion that Constantine modified the New testament. I challenge you to prove it. If you cannot cite sources, just be quiet, you’re done.
It’s a silly position because we have Greek papyri of the NT books that existed before Constantine was even born. Your failure to provide even one source reveals that you really don’t know of one… it seems to me you are parroting what your cult teaches and haven’t done any actual research. I can prove that the NT and Trinity existed before Constantine.
Tertullian wrote about the Trinity of the Father, Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Tertullian, a century before Constantine, writes in On Baptism, “sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,”[5] citing Matthew 28:19 ( In the statement of the Trinity, Tertullian (160-225) was a forerunner of the Nicene doctrine of the trinity. Tertullian wrote in Against Praxeus ch. 12: “If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, “Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; ”[6] Furthermore, Tertullian wrote in Against Praxeus chapter 25: “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, “I and my Father are One,”[7] Here the term Trinity is explained as three persons in one essence over one hundred years before Constantine. See http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5342
Sources talk but Excuses walk:
5] Tertullian, On Baptism Chapter VI.—The Angel the Forerunner of the Holy Spirit. Meaning Contained in the Baptismal Formula. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.vi.iii.vi.html
[6] The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 606.
[7]Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997), 621.
No Cris. You are asking me to do your research for you. If you want that, it will cost you $250. per hour. That’s my standard fee.
WEAK weak weak… its almost comedic. You are commenting on my website and I am calling you out. But you refuse to back up your claims. That means you lose. I believe you are a misinformed cult victim and you are proving it by making more excuses. Nobody takes you seriously when you cannot provide a shred of evidence for your claims, so why waste your time and ours? Put up or shut up.
I predict more insults and excuses…. but I will not approve anymore posts from you that don’t contain evidence.
Oh my Lord, Mike, you are lost….You are so brainwashed by the Jehova’s Witness cult it is not even funny. Jesus Christ was NOT created by God, He existed IN THE BEGINNING with God the Father as per scripture.Your statements are the utmost of heresy, you are spreading the most destructive, lie filled doctrines available while still disguising them as Christian. Please, I implore you, get out of the Jehovas and pray for understanding, you are obviously way beyond reason. By the way, Young’s literal translation is filled with errors. I seriously doubt you can even understand the Greek and Hebrew, if you could you would not be falling for this heresy and spreading it further. I am done with you Mike, you are sprouting demonic words and we are warned not to become ensnared with arguments with demon oppressed persons. I will pray for you, but please, seek true help from a true minister in your area.
Mike will not be commenting because he cannot provide a shred of evidence for any of his claims, anyone can make claims with no evidence.
His is a classic case of religious people who tow their denominational line, ignoring even clear proof given them in scripture. They will not see, listen, or even acknowledge anything except the stance they are given. As an example, the Jehova’s altered the word in their translation of the bible to remove the deity of Christ, which is what leads people to ideals such as he has been posting. It is quite sad.
Mark, I would not call JWs a denomination, in truth, they are a non-Christian cult because they deny Jesus is God, deny the trinity, they deny the immaterial soul, and they have issued a lot of false prophecies and set failed dates for the end times. If you look at all the failed predictions in JWs past, is utterly amazing people still fall for it, I guess they are indoctrinated as children and never learn to think critically for themselves.
Even the word “Jehovah” is a well known translation mistake! I can prove it too, interested?
A very good assessment Cris. What I find sad is that if normal Christian people showed half as much zealousness and passion as the Jehova’s did, we might find less of a growing divide between non believers and the saved.Jehova;s have the right attitude but the wrong message
Mike — you may believe you’ve studied those things but you haven’t. You have been manipulated by a dangerous mind-control cult. You are indoctrinated not educated. If you actually had studied Hebrew for instance you would know that “Jehovah” was a mistake. The Jews will not say the name of God “Yahweh” so they substitute the name Adonai or Ha Shem for it when they read the Hebrew Bible. Originally there were no vowels in hebrew, they came later as little marks under the consonants. The Rabbis put the vowels for Adonai under the consonants of Yahweh to remind themselves not to pronounce Yahweh but the German scholars who originally translated the Hebrew didn’t know that… they also mistakenly thought the yod was a J sound but it’s a Y sound. Thus, it came out Jehovah instead of Yahweh. So even the name of your cult is from a mistaken translation. Not to mention the many failed prophecies.
Mike you are grossly uninformed, Constantine had NOTHING to do with the trinity, absolutely nothing and Socrates had been dead for centuries before the NT era. You need to read some real history. I debated the Constantine issue with Russ Houck who wrote a book offering the theories you espouse and he did not fair well. Its time to give it up or I wil block you from further comments.
Where can I find the audio of this debate? http://extraordinaryintelligence.com/trinity-debate-cris-putnam-russ-houck/
I have found the “review of the debate” but I want to hear the actual debate. I have long believed that the trinity is Babylonian paganism, but haven’t closed the book on it because there seems to be just as many scriptures that “prve” the Trinity as “disprove” the Trinity. And NO I don’t want anyone trying to convince me of this or that in this thread. I will decide for myself. Is there a link to the actual audio of the debate?
Debate link is posted here http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5337
Houck could not provide a single source that the trinity comes from paganism — because there’s not one. Victor the idea that the trinity is Babylonian is false. That was proposed by Hyslop’s old book “The Two babylons” but that book has been exposed as having no real basis in Babylonian history and culture. He made it up, It’s nonsense. the trinity is a logical inference from the teaching of scripture.
What Steve Berger thought was his son, was a demon pretending to be his son. There is no immortal soul. Therefore ghosts cannot exist. In the scriptures, soul and life are synonyms, not two parts of one person.
Ghost is effectively a term used to refer to our sensory perception of non material, non flesh and blood entities or beings. It is not the soul or spirit itself but some manner of the perception of them from our human perspective. Also, in some cases what we might refer to as ghost are just a manner of a holographic record existent in the reality matrix; that matrix is typically referred to as the AkashIc Field.
Ghost is a term Satan originated so that all those adhering to religion would not believe an accurate translation of the scriptures. The scriptures contain NO word for ghost. Only false translations contain the word. Same with the word hell, cross, and the concept of cross instead of torture stake, and immortal soul.
Wrong again Mike. What form of scripture do you study?
Mark;
It is you who is incorrect. Why is it so important to you to assist Satan?
It is common for a person to see a loved one after they pass away. Some doctors claim it is emotional. BUT when my mother died, I placed a perfume bottle that had been a gift my mom received the day before she died and I still wanted her to have it. I told NO ONE. The tiny bottle was well hidden under her hand.
The following week we were getting ready to attend a memorial for her. My husband woke suddenly that morning and said “Why did you dump perfume on me?” (But there was no perfume) We laughed it off.
Later I opened a new bottle I’d gotten of the SAME perfume (the same person had sent one to both my mom and I) I’d decided to wear it that day only. Anyway, my husband gasped and said “THAT is the same scent of the perfume I dreamt you’d poured on me.” My husband didn’t believe in “ghosts”. he had no emotional ties to my mom whom he’d met a few times. WHY is it a SIN for Christians to believe in everlasting life? I don’t understand that.
I just do not see any justification for your logic. Samuel shows that God allowed it once, who are you to say he might not do it again? You cannot know that. How many times does something have to appear in scripture before it is permissible for it to happen again? God may choose to allow it as he pleases and we have no way to know that he has never done it again.
I am a born-again Christian. I am also a “psychic medium” as the world would understand the term. I am 60 yrs old and had my first experience with a spirit of a person when I was about 7. Then again at 16, I’ve learned ALOT. Christ died so that we can have everlasting life. IF you believe that, then why do you feel it is wrong to believe in the afterlife?
Don’t quote the Old testament, as we did not have everlasting life until Christ gave us that gift. I believe it is a GIFT that God allows some spirits to communicate at times with people who can hear them. They share love and the message that there really is life after death. The hype on tv shows like Ghost Adventures? i don’t know, I’ve spoken with MANY (dead) people and I’ve never met a bad one. I believe it’s because it’s a gift God allows them to communicate thru the “veil” at times. Demons would NEVER be allowed this gift (I believe) One of the first things Christ did after he died was to go to Hades to announce the news of his ressurrection. Jesus gave us an example to live by. So if He can talk to the dead, why can’t I? It’s the same as any other spiritual gift.
Ghosts are restless spirits awaiting judgement. I thought I read that somewhere. Perhaps some of these restless spirits take on the form of innocent children. Anyway, the thought that ghosts are restless spirits who perhaps know of the judgement that awaits them has been my unlearned view.
Chris, the question is actually “Is it from a Biblical standpoint — IE scriptural.” Many people claim a biblical worldview but then bring in tons of extra-biblical or even secular evidence to back their claim. If that is the case, then the claim being made is extra-biblical, not biblical.
I am very familiar with the scriptures.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
One time in scripture was the spirit of a human brought back before the time, namely the prophet Samuel after he had died, and this was done by the request of king Saul by the witch of Endor in 1Sam 28:7-15, but this was the only scriptural example of a human apparition (disembodied human spirit back from the dead).
Numerous people have been brought back from the dead in scripture, but this was bodily, they were raised wholly human — excepting only Christ himself. Solomon would have known well of this example of Samuel when he wrote Ecclesiastes around fifty to seventy years afterwards.
Mark typed: “Actually he does not imply ghosts exist in Luke 24…Luke 24:37 utilizes the Greek “pneuma” meaning spirit, and NOT the Greek “phantasma” which would mean ghost.”
I think he gotcha there Cris…There are no such things as “Ghosts” as we believe ‘ghosts’ to be in the modern world, and there has NEVER, ever been any solid evidence for UFO’s, giving this belief the benefit of the doubt, i have seen a great many vids, and they ALL look fake, or not clear, or too far away, or digitally made…no real physical evidence of them yet other than what people interpret what they see, nada, zip, zero, they all fail greatly to impress in any meaningful way.
Sorry, and nothing personal, but if your Petrus Romanus Book’s alleged evidence this current Pope is the last one in history, and is not, your credibility in putting out books with the highest integrity is gonna slip a few notches…please don’t be the Hal Lindsey of this generation.
Not so on both accounts, you seem to be under the impression that if you aren’t aware of it it doesn’t exist, sorry but that’s not very convincing. I believe you are uninformed. The first point is rather silly, ghost and spirit are interchangeable terms by definition and it is determined by context. Jesus was a human man and the disciples saw him walking toward them and thought he was a spirit — a human spirit — a ghost by definition. I use the dictionary definition
1
: the seat of life or intelligence : soul
2
: a disembodied soul; especially : the soul of a dead person believed to be an inhabitant of the unseen world or to appear to the living in bodily likeness
I’m not sure how UFOs even fit in this conversation but you are similarly uninformed. How can you say people do not see unidentified things in the sky? I have. If you doubt there is evidence for UFOs then you have not read Richard Dolan’s UFOs and the National Security State –100s of US military documents of sightings by pilots are far better than a YouTube video.
I am also not sure how UFO’s came into this, but in my understanding. ghost and spirit are NOT interchangeable. In the Greek, ghost and spirit have two distinct different meanings. Spirit referring to that which is not flesh, that which is the true form of life essence, whereas ghost refers to the idea of former living souls that have returned to earth, or more properly have never left and are bound here by some other force, of which the only scriptural similarity to that would be those described in Jude as the fallen who have been bound in darkness until judgment.Your dictionary definition uses soul, but not spirit when referring to a ghost. Also clearly there are two different definitions or else there would not be two separate Greek words, being “pneuma” and “phantasma, the same as there are different Greek words that get translated to “anoint” but have completely different meanings. I must beg to differ here with you.
hmmmm……very interesting…..my opinion is that the “ghost passages” mentioned only prove that the disciples “believed in ghosts”…..the 1 sam 28 passage is troubling tho…..taken at face value it does seem that the personage was samuel….whether this was a one time only thing, or establishes a precedent is an interesting question…….the idea that when ppl die they could “trapped” here….or summoned by mediums…….seems to go against numerous scriptures that indicate its either up or down for each person at death…instantly……i dont think there is a “3rd area”…purgatory etc……for suffering/tormented souls……my priest has explained that if there is a purgatory it would be more of a refining or purifying area than “twilight zone” type thing where non-believing souls are sentenced/trapped…….accepting the idea of “ghosts” also suggest the possibilty that there could be good or “kindly” ghosts…ie…casper……or grandma…….i suppose it would be ez-est to just ask one…if u could……but…im constrained from this by scriptures prohibition against necromancy……but…good points on both sides….ty!
You need to think carefully about what Jesus did say in Luke 24 “a ghost does not have flesh and bones” the grammar implies Jesus believed in ghosts. It is a positive truth claim that is precipitated on there being real entities without flesh and bones, or it is a nonsense statement. I think it is ill advised to portray the Lord as a instrument of nonsense. If ghosts did not exist or were exclusively demons why would Jesus intentionally mislead the disciples (reinforcing a false belief) and, even more, why would the Holy Spirit inspire Luke to mislead the readers of scripture?
Although tradition assumes it, there is nothing that says people go to heaven or hell “instantly.” In fact hell proper is empty today, the final judgment occurs after the return of Christ. Hades (sheol) is temporary, the intermediate state for unbelievers is very murky in scripture, we are told very little.
Cris,
I know there is no scripture to support this, BUT in my meetings with people, when we receive a message from their dead loved one, they tell me they are in a place similar to earth, but of course w/o the problems. I see (dead) people who live in the country, live by the shore, the mountains, waterfalls, farms with other family, etc. I see “heaven” as a bright, very bright place that I cannot see into. SOMETIMES a relative will come down from that area to speak. In fact it happened one time when a (dead) lady came from the bright area and spoke. I told my client, “Your aunt must have been very religious.” She replied “My aunt was a NUN.” (Which stunned me because I was raised Baptist and I’d always thought Catholics didn’t go to Heaven. (ha ha) So I learned my lesson. Anyway, I call the earth-like place the “other side”. It’s only what I see, but I’ve had such detail proven in my meetings, that I am personally convinced of this “other side”.
I would like to add that the Bible does state that in the last days your young men will see visions and women will dream dreams (or vice-versa). What I’m getting at is that I believe we are in the last days and PERHAPS my “gift” is because of that. It’s VERY hard to be a Christian and be honest about my gift. I assume others have the same but are afraid to speak? I have begged God to take this away if it isn’t “real” and over and over I have meetings where I’m able to convince people that Christ did die to give us everlasting life. I have had several atheist teens who are now Christians because this gift stunned them. So I question it daily, but I must have courage. I think of the “ten talents” story and I don’t want to be one who refused to use their talent simply because I don’t understand how it works.
Robin
I agree in part with the following qualification, I believe the “middle ground” spirit realm can be largely subjective, as in it seems completely different to different people and contexts. People see this middle area and live to write about it. This explains the differences in NDE accounts, OBEs, the astral plane, nirvana of the buddhists… However, its not heaven proper and it’s only temporarily in the control of various fallen angels, or even our minds, it depends on the circumstance. The Apostle Paul wrote about an experience of heaven proper and mentioned a middle: “I know a man in Christ fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven, and I know this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—that he was caught up to paradise and heard words not to be spoken, which it is not permitted for a person to speak.”(2 Co 12:2–4)
The overarching idea is there does seem to be a sort of middle ground common to a variety of accounts from divergent sources, the fact that they converge on this idea strongly implies there is something to it.
Cris,
I agree with all you said above except the “fallen angels” being in control. Only from my experiences, I don’t believe fallen angels have been allowed any control of this “middle area”. The middle area that I see is a beautiful place, like a “perfect” earth would be and I do not think God would allow “fallen angels” to be in control of that area. It simply doesn’t fit into anything I’ve observed. This area I see is a place where people in spirit form are learning, working, growing, healing (emotionally) while waiting either the resurrection, or the time they will go to heaven. WHY they wait, I do not know, but they seem satisfied with it. It’s almost like they wait to greet loved ones.
I question the accuracy of what you claim to “see” It might be entirely subjective and there’s no way to tell.
Robin;
You are engaged in something quite dangerous. Those messages from “dead loved ones” are messages from demons pretending to be dead loved ones. If you swallow that hook, they have you and will not easily leave you alone. They will begin to change your way of thinking, and more than likely, affect you in much more dangerous ways. Please, stop now and protect yourself.
According to the author of the Gospel of John it would effectively be an error to use the Christology of chapt 1 of that gospel as a text backing the so-called Trinity Doctrine stemming from the 4th century.
The Gospel of John is a 1st century text and its author put an explanation of its Christology concept into the text of that gospel itself at John 10:30-34. The author even depicts Yeshua himself as elucidating that explanation.
That explanation is essentially equivalent to the modern era New Age belief system. It is closely akin to the concept of Immanence as taught by Luke 17:20-21, which itself is a variation from Gospel of Thomas logion 3.
This article highlights these verses that bring forth the teaching of Immanence as the high spirituality concept that Yeshua taught:
Which Jesus? (Gnostic teachings of the New Testament)
http://vossnetblog.org/2014/09/24/which-jesus-gnostic-teachings-of-the-new-testament/
Just a final word on Mike Savage and his heretical arguments. He proudly professes that the Jehova’s Witnesses have the absolute correct ideals of God, Christ, and the Trinity. His claim is that God is God, Christ is created, and the Holy Spirit is an outside force. First he has come very close to committing blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, something Christ has called the unforgivable sin. He also follows a major error in Jehova teachings. John 1:1 is the clear cut case of the heresy and blaspheme of the translation of the Jehova’s bible. John 1:1 reads “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.” But because the Jehova’s do not want to believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, when they created their translation, they changed the wording “Theos” meaning God to read “A” god, removing the singular deity from Christ and reducing Him to a secondary “god”. Nowhere else do they translate “Theos” as “a god” but always “God”. It is painfully obvious that they have purposely changed scripture to suit their own heretical doctrine. Unfortunately Mike will not admit this and he only spouts off about “religion”, apparently unable to understand that the definition of religion is a system of belief concerning deity. So ANY belief is a religion yet he continues to say he has no religion. Please, all be very wary of such people and I refer you to the scripture written by Paul, “If anyone comes to you preaching a gospel different than the one we have preached, he is to be accursed!” Good luck all.
Mike, the more you speak the more you betray God and show that you have no idea what you are talking about. First of all I am not calling God “The Jehova”..I am calling those who are part of your cult “The Jehovas.”.You are attempting to distort fact to lend credence to your fantasy. You have no clue who the 144,000 are, your doctrine seems to teach that the 144,000 are the only ones “ever to be turned into spirit beings and go to heaven”…. OK Mike, since there are over 7.9 million Jehova’s Witnesses, tell me which 7.56 million of you have wasted their time because apparently only 144,000 of you will get to heaven? Also it is time for you to back up the drivel you are sprouting. Tell me oh great scholar, which original Genesis (you probably don’t even know what the actual name of the book is) scripture says Jesus was “as a god”? Also you failed to explain why the Jehova’s altered the word of John 1:1….If John does not call Jesus “a god” are you saying that you have more authority than he and can correct his mistake? I truly am sad for you Mike, you are so lost in this mindless babble that you have been taught, Answer those 3 questions or please, stop posting at all.
Mark;
First of all, it’s not your decision or your place to tell me to “stop posting at all”. That’s just rediculous. You’re being as haughty and arrogant as is Cris.
I betray God NOT AT ALL, EVER and you know it. Secondly, there is no “the Jehovas”. God commanded ALL to be His witnesses. The members of the society actively obey that command, and 80 or so years ago voted to change the name of the society to Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am not distorting facts, it is you who are distorting. You can’t even spell God’s proper name. It’s Jehovah, not Jehova. There is no fantasy I am lending credence to. You fantasize that Jesus began a cult, and he never did. I am sure he and his Father are not happy about you saying he did. When the apostles, on Nisan 14 of 3 c.e., were holy spirit annointed, they became the first of the 144,000 annointed sons of God, and Jesus, on that same night before he died, began the Christian congregation. They will co-rule and will fight Armageddon with Jesus. They will help to destroy you and your ilk also. The associates of the annointed will be protected, as is CLEARLY indicated in the scriptures. Those honest hearted, witnesses for God will never die. He instructed those now annointed apostles as to what to do and to build the Christian Congregation. Today’s witnesses of God are the same congregation. You are supposed to be His witness also, but refuse to do so. Instead, you denegrate those who obey our heavenly Father. Now the annointed are the only ones to go to Heaven as is PLAINLY taught in the scriptures. Yes, there are 8 million registered as JW’s, and 12 million who are about to become witnesses for God Almighty, but no one ever said the entirety of the annointed came from that group. That was your statement, not mine, not the society’s. Now how can they have wasted their time in doing God’s will as commanded? It’s actually a waste of time to NOT do God’s will, as is your case. Now as far as backing things up, and calling God’s word drivel, no. If you were one of my students, then you would learn God’s word. Since you are not, and do not care to know that Word, then you can find out on your own. Backing things up? You already said you had access to the information. STUDY IT. Nothing has been changed. The only differences over the years of the translation committee of over 3000 people, for almost a hundred years, is that their understanding continues to improve. They actually never stop, as I understand them. You can’t say that any scripture was changed, because you don’t know whether it was or not. You don’t, and haven’t studied much of anything, except the work of others. You ‘ve taken religion’s word for it, and your associate’s word for it, and haven’t come upon this information on your own effort. That’s as dishonest as all of your other statements. Being dishonest, why would anyone want to help you understand God? Why would God help you understand Him? Under those circumstances, He will NEVER do that. No honest heart, no help using holy spirit to give you discernment. No holy spirit help, then Satan’s misleading, and his obfuscation of the truths in the scriptures, is all you can hope for. It is IMPOSSIBLE to overcome what Satan does, without God’s help, with regards hiding the meaning of the scriptures. You are proof, once again, of those scriptural statements. It amazes me that you ignore those scriptural admonitions. Working in opposition to the coming theocracy and it’s King is so wildly insane that I can’t describe how insane it actually is. For that reason, I am sad for you, but I can’t let it bother me. You are bunched with the other “goats” comprising 7.4 billion antichrist on Earth, doomed to destruction.
Mike, Mike, Mike…lol…I will give you credit, you tried to at least answer 2 of the 3 questions, albeit you answered them incorrectly. First of all you said God’s name is Jehovah. if you actually were not brainwashed you would understand that according to text, Elohim is first given, followed by the proper Yahweh. Jehovah is a corruption of the original. First error on your part. Secondly, I never said Jesus started a cult, YOU just did. I said MAN started the cult, Jesus started nothing except His words and that which we must follow. MAN created denominations, for which there is no excuse. You embrace them as an “us against them” philosophy. Amazing that according to your doctrines, no one had it right until your cult came along to “correct” us all with a new interpretation. Thirdly, the 144,000 as stated in Revelation are a future prophecy, but you are trying to equate them with a past group. Shame on you for not reading our scriptures, oh wait, you read from the JehovaH’s bible….so it brings me back to the fact that you STILL have not tried to answer my most important question so I will ask it ONE MORE TIME and demand an answer. WHY did the JehovaH’s Witnesses change the wording of the ORIGINAL scriptures to match what they wanted to be correct doctrine? Why did they change Theos from reading “God” to “A god”? Why do they only make that translational change in the verse that proves Christ’s deity as part of the Trinity and nowhere else in your translation? I have asked this of you many times and you avoid it like the plague.One other point: How do you think I was able to correctly identify you as a JehovaH’s Witness back in the beginning of these posts even though you were trying desperately to hide that fat until you were called out on it and now venomously use it as a place of elevated righteousness? And let me ask you one question: Are you one of the 144,000 that will be in heaven? You also failed to answer where in Genesis it teaches that Jesus was “as a god”…Seems you avoided most of what I asked. So please, answer all of that now.
With this kind of a subject assertion is required from both sides. I don’t think it’s coincidence the belief in spirits of the dead is more dominant among pagan beliefs. Either they won’t acknowledge demons exists, or they at least have a hard time calling something a demon (often an evil spirit instead), but blaming demonic activity on the deceased is an easy one. It’s almost like the fallback explanation for unbelievers, just like evolution is.
If I remember right, a familiar spirit is like a servant spirit under the control of the “master”. Looking up the definition of just ‘familiar’ says: a demon supposedly attending and obeying a witch, often said to assume the form of an animal.
What I said in regards to the familiar spirit was quoted from an ex satanist who realized through his own conjuring and using demons as ‘servants’ where the real power was (Christ), and eventually became a Christian.
Speaking of original meaning, looking at Math 14 for example, the word ghost or spirit is phantasma in Greek. It also means spectre. You could easily come to the conclusion by their reaction they were afraid. Fear among other negative effects seem to be common among ‘sightings’. Why is it so hard for some who believe in both demonic activity and spirits of the dead to distinguish between the two. Just watch an episode of ‘Ghost Adventures’ and see how they throw both terms around like even they don’t know the difference.
http://alwaysbeready.org/jehovahs-witnesses
Be careful, you will have Mike Savage attacking you for using something that shows the error of JehovaH’s Witnesses…
As I suspected mike you chose not to answer my questions, because you cannot. Where there is much wording, sin exists. You put forth an enormous amount f writing and said nothing except that you are making excuses. You said they changed nothing except from a further understanding of the scriptures. Mike, it does not take further modern understanding of the Greek word Theos to insert “a” before “God” in only one place in the entire scripture that conveniently removes the deity from Christ. It was done purposely and you cannot answer otherwise which is why you wrote all that you did. You call my words “blowhard”…again, insults rather than scriptural backing. You speak what you have been taught. Sorry I do not by for a minute that you are a scholar of the Greek and Hebrew because you make mistakes in scripture constantly. Yes I did correctly identify you as JehovaH’s Witness, and as your vigorous defense of them is evident, you have confirmed it, because only the Jehovah’s Witnesses say that they are correct in what they interpret, not one other section of Christianity does that. Mike. You haven’t answered my questions satisfactorily nor have you used ANY scripture to back up anything you are saying. You have simply attacked. Allow me to utilize one more scripture to show your deviousness and your error. As Paul wrote, “Absent from the body, Present with the Lord”….He wrote this for all, not just 144,000 choice candidates. You have corrupted the word, you have put forth heresy and blasphemous doctrines and have offered no scriptural basis to back your points. Therefore I must refrain from responding to you any more because your work here, even though you may feel like it is inspired from God, is not. Unless you can respond with actual answers and scripture that verifies it, I am done with you. I will however pray for you and your deliverance.
You must be an idiot. Bare minimum, you are a jerk and do the will of your father, the father of the lie. The manslayer, Satan.
I answered your questions, against my better judgement. Your postulation that I am making excuses is further proving what a jerk you really are. The society changed nothing, as I previously said, other than clarifying their understanding of scripture. But you can’t understand such a thing apparently. Christ is God’s son, God is the deity. Christ was God’s first creation, and through him, all other things were created. You, however, call God a liar, just like Chris Putnam does. Stating facts is not making insults. Your childish mind only sees it that way, because you lack humility. I speak WHAT I HAVE LEARNED, not what I have been taught. That concept is foreign to you, because you’ve learned nothing on your own, and don’t understand even the concept. What you believe about my learning, Greek, Hebrew, or the scriptures doesn’t mean a thing, other than, once again, you are arrogant and not humble. Just more proof. I make NO mistakes in scripture whatsoever. You only state that I do, because, again, you cannot wrap your mind around actual personal study. You have no thoughts your own. You steal them from other apostates to Christianity. No, you didn’t identify me correctly as a Jehovah’s Witness. I am God’s witness, as we are all commanded to be, because, as the scriptures demand of us, we are ALL supposed to be witnesses to the coming Kingdom and theocracy, and it’s King, Jesus. I haven’t once “defended” the society to you. You only mangle my words and “claim” that I am, because you aren’t honest. You are a liar for Satan. Now you claim that the JW’s interpret scripture. I’ve never met one who did. They don’t say they do. In fact they all say the do not. More lies from you and your father, Satan. You refer to sects of Christianity. There are no valid sects of Christianity. There is only the original. Any sect/division/dissention of the original is false and originated with Satan. You wrote “absent from the body, present with the lord”. That most certainly DOES only refer to the annointed. No question about it, except with sects of Christianity and all other false religion. ALL RELIGION IS FALSE. Now it is impossible to commit blasphemy against sects of Christianity, because they are in themselves blasphemous in everything they do. Almost ALL of what they teach is not scriptural. You claim “I am done with you”. What a haughty arrogant person you are. What a liar and a worker of wickedness you are. What a misled fool and worker of iniquity you are. And you have the arrogant nerve to say what you do. I don’t understand how you, or anyone else, can live with you the way you behave. Your behavior is PROOF POSITIVE that you are not Christian. You behave in the opposite fashion as that required in the scriptures. No one could tell you are Christian by your behavior. All can tell that I am, because of my behavior. That is in response to God’s requirement of our behavior. I do the will of God in all things possible. You do the exact opposite, directly, or stealthily. You are thoroughly indoctrinated in Satan’s work in opposing the sovereign ruler of the universe. Since that’s Satan’s goal, opposing the theocracy, you most certainly are Satan’s son.
Mike, you answered nothing. All you did was call me an idiot. “But whosoever shall say “You fool” shall be in danger of hell fire.” Let me see here, you said in your post..”You must be an idiot,” and “you are a jerk,” and “What a liar and a worker of wickedness you are.” and “What a misled fool and worker of iniquity you are.”….. then after that you said to me, “Your behavior is PROOF POSITIVE that you are not Christian.” Wow, hypocritical much? Who’s behavior proves they are not Christian? You said, “No one could tell you are Christian by your behavior. All can tell that I am, because of my behavior. That is in response to God’s requirement of our behavior.” So you are saying God has required you to call me “idiot, jerk, fool”…Amazing how Christian you are. , Now watch this one…this one I especially love…you said to me, “What a haughty arrogant person you are.” after which you then said ” I make NO mistakes in scripture whatsoever.: Wow, haughty and arrogant? LOL!!!! Glad you are the only perfect man besides Christ… And of course, once again you avoided answering the question again about why the JW’s changed the translation of “Theos” from “God” to “a god” only in John 1:1 and nowhere else. Do you really think there is anyone reading this that cannot see through you? You show no humility, you show no compassion, and most of all, you accuse. Who is scripturally called the accuser? Satan. You have accused me of being Satan’s son, you have accused me of opposing God, you have accused and accused and accused. Well we know according to scripture, Satan and all those who do his will accuse. I have not accused you of anything, merely asked you questions and pointed out your mistakes. You have accused both myself and Cris throughout your rants. I bet you will insult us again and once again refuse to answer that simple question I have asked you four times now….Last chance to show that you are anything more than an insulting, accusing, and thoroughly mean spirited and violent person.